Understanding Interpersonal Neurobiology

Our children's nervous systems are a carbon copy of ours. Understanding interpersonal neurobiology means what's going on inside the parents is also going on inside the child. If we want to calm our children, then we must first learn to calm our own nervous systems. Clinical psychologist, Dr. Sandy Gluckman shares tools with parents to heal themselves and their children of trauma, calm their nervous systems and reduce cortisol levels in order to de-flame the brain and rewire the belief system.

Three Key Points

·      Healing trauma means healing the nervous system. Dr. Sandy explains that children and adults living with trauma are functioning as survivors and not as “thrivers.” Hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of parents and children are living life as survivors. Most people operate out of the wrong branch of the nervous system. To become whole again, we must change lanes out of the sympathetic into the parasympathetic.

·       Parents need to become trauma-informed and know the signs of trauma. Dr. Sandy would love for every parent in a blended family to say, “We’ve had trauma. We’ve all had trauma and we’re going to educate ourselves on what this means.” We cannot hide trauma or push it away. A child does not wake up one morning and say, “I’m going to be defiant today!”

·       A few little pieces of advice. Dr. Sandy advises parents to never talk about the behavior that you’re trying to improve. She prefers to get in behind the behavior and talk about what’s going on behind. Is the child being anxious, afraid, frustrated, annoyed, irritated, or confused? It’s important to connect with the child. Dr. Sandy suggests some resources and roleplay to help the child get over the trauma response in the nervous system.

Dr. Sandy Gluckman:       Website

Contact:
Traci Dority-Shanklin: LinkedIn Twitter Facebook
traci@sisupartnersllc.com
website: www.nuclear-families.com

Transcript

Traci Shanklin  00:20

We are back with the second half of our conversation with Dr. Sandy Gluckman. In this episode, we dive deeper into how critical it is for parents to heal their own inner child wounds. As a reminder, Dr. Sandy Gluckman is a psychologist, who has been paying attention to the growing epidemic of childhood anxiety for several decades. She is an early adopter of the science of neuroplasticity. She is passionate about teaching parents, caregivers, and teachers how to help their children struggling either from trauma or with a sensitive empathic nature. Dr. Sandy has created countless parenting programs that are changing the lives of thousands of families around the globe. When the mental and physical medical community let me down, I found Dr. Sandy. I was desperate to find someone to evaluate my child's dysregulation from a whole child perspective. I needed help on how to parent her best. And I knew deeply that what I had been doing was not working. I am privileged to have worked with Dr. Sandy and have her on the podcast. So, let's pick up this conversation where we left off. Dr. Sandy is explaining trauma and the interconnectedness of parents’ trauma to their children. Can you tell us what healing trauma means and how we go about doing it? 

Sandy Gluckman  01:51

Healing trauma means healing the nervous system. It means that these children or the adults involved are living life as survivors not as thrivers. I remember when way, way back in my process of healing myself. When somebody said to me, “Sandy, you're living life as a survivor. You're not living not as a thriver.” And I was horrified because it was true. And we have hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of parents and children who are living life as survivors. Operating out of the long run branch too often in the wrong branch of the nervous system. So, what “healing trauma” means is -- are we talking about parents’ trauma or children's trauma?

Traci Shanklin  02:41

We're talking about parents’ trauma, but I think this is a crossover question because obviously, we want to talk about both. But, let's start with the parents because I think that's where we were, and then move to the children. 

Sandy Gluckman  02:55

Let's start with the parents then. And so healing trauma as a parent, if somebody comes to me and says, “Dr. Sandy, I really want to heal my own trauma.” What I'm going to show them how to do is to first of all understand what's going on with their nervous system. Because we use that word very lightly, and very even educated people know they've got a nervous system, but they haven't got a clue how it works. And our nervous system is absolutely amazing because it continuously gives us messages. So, I teach them to become friends with their nervous system. To listen all day, every day to the messages of the nervous system sending when it feels unsafe. And then I teach them what to do in order to shift out of that unsafe survival mechanism into their thriving per nervous system.

Sandy Gluckman  03:47

So, that they first need to understand and listen and hear, what's my nervous system feeling? Why am I feeling unsafe right now? Whether I want to fight with somebody or whether I want to flee out of this room or whatever it may be. And then to have the tools to -- I call it, “changing lanes,” to change the lane out of the sympathetic into the parasympathetic and whole again.

Traci Shanklin  04:11

This is a really important piece for this community because so much of blended family work really revolves around this, the adult interaction. And I think the more training involved in for the co-parents and the stepparents to really learn this tool. I mean, it's something, I mean, let me just say it's not easy. I work this every day, every moment. I have a lot of guilt truthfully, associated with this because I think those early moments that I mentioned when my daughter was in this state and I thought this was going to be like our honeymoon and it was chaos, and I was confused. I was confused because I didn't know how to comfort her. I was sometimes angry because she wasn't listening. And she or she was running or she was putting herself in unsafe situations. It was just -- it was there was a constant state of drama coming at me. And yeah, I have a lot of guilt for not knowing this sooner. But, I want to relieve this audience that we've all had to learn in we do -- we, one of my guests just said this that I had on this podcast, she said, “We do the next right thing. And in the moment that you're in you can only that's all you can choose is the next right thing. And I think that is an important piece. But this piece of really listening to yourself. And having almost like a subtle pause in your thought process before you react is such an important piece, especially among the adults in a blended family scenario.

Sandy Gluckman  05:58

I'm glad you're bringing up the guilt because there's no judgment. 

Traci Shanklin  06:02

Yeah. And it's hard not to, but –

Sandy Gluckman  06:05

It's hard not to feel guilty. The guilt is not useful. I can tell you that. Everybody knows that, but the guilt still comes up. And I always say that I tell all my wonderful mums and dads, “You did the very best you knew how. Tom, you didn't know what you didn't know.” So, I'm not so sure about the next right thing because we don't often know what the next right thing is. We’re just doing -- we just did the very best thing in that moment that we had the capacity and the knowledge of to offer. And so that's why, for me the piece of educating parents is absolutely huge. So, I would say spend energy on educating yourself. I have a fabulous course. Program is online; it's videos. You could do it in your own time. And it's called Heal Your Trauma and Your Child's Trauma Will Heal Too. So, let's not be guilty. Let's forgive ourselves. And let's go forward learning how to do it differently.

Traci Shanklin  07:09

Yeah, so I think we can go back to children because I feel that children are our teachers in so many ways, and as a parent being conscious of how we're bringing in our childhood wounds, and it is a step in the right direction. But, I really wanted to get your perspective on how we help our children in blended families because divorce alone can open up a wound, but often for at least one parent, they're bringing in their inner child stuff. You add a new spouse and it gets complicated really quickly. Yeah. So, how can the entire co-parenting unit best prepare and support children as they heal from trauma of divorce or of the loss of a parent?

Sandy Gluckman  07:58

Well, the very first thing I would say is that the in that situation, parents need to become “trauma informed.” And I would love to think that every parent is in a blended situation says, “We've had trauma; we’ve all had trauma. We're going to educate ourselves on what this means and we’re going to get the tools to start healing.” So, it's not useful to think that you can hide the trauma or push it away, or just continue doing the very best you know how. It doesn't work that way because the trauma is lodged in the parents’ and in the children's nervous system. So, being trauma informed for me is a hugely important one. The other thing is that these children need to feel that the parents are truly calm. Now, of course, when we're healing from trauma, part of my program is that you will learn how because when you going actively from the survival nervous system into the parasympathetic, thriving nervous system, you feel the sense of enormous calm. You feel serenity. And so, the children need to feel that their parents are feeling calm and safe, and serene. And you can never fake it. Never fake being calm because children will pick it up and then it makes them even more anxious and less trusting. So, one of the things, again, that you would do as part of the process is learn how to bring yourself into that place of calm. We all have in the center of our being a beautiful place of calm. We often don't go there or we don't know how to go there or we've shut it down. So, we have to project true, authentic, real calm. Now remember we talked about interpersonal neurobiology, which means what's going on in the parents is going on in the child. So, if we have learned to truly calm our nervous systems, our children's nervous system is a carbon copy of ours, so their nervous system will automatically calm, too. So being calm but in a real way, not a fake way. It’s hugely important. And then there are two very important tools. But, of course, these you can only practice if you're out of the survival fight, flight, freeze as a parent, and you're in this healthy place, and that is to learn the tools of real connection. So, I talk about connection with a capital “C”. Cap C. Real connection, getting inside the child's being, not focusing always on the doing but more on the being, as opposed to connection with a small “c,” which does not change the child's chemistry for the better.

Traci Shanklin  10:59

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Traci Shanklin  12:32

Yeah, so I want to go back a little bit and just can you explain first from the child's point of view, how trauma can be obvious or maybe subtle? I think that you touched on this at the beginning where you said, you know, it's abuse or physical or sexual or it seemed those are obvious traumas. But, I think that many children are silently suffering something more subtle. And I'd like to get your perspective on that. 

Sandy Gluckman  13:05

Well, not so sure if many are silently suffering. Some aren't. Traci, are we saying what are the sort of behavioral symptoms of trauma in children, it would help us realize that they are really living as survivors with a trauma still stuck in the nervous system. Essentially, it really first of all, these are usually children who have a very sensitive nature. Like mine, my little Sandy is still very sensitive. And so, we need to if we have a child with a very sensitive nature, please understand that is a gift. If the child knows how not to let it be a burden and the parents know how to parent a sensitive child. So sensitive children that would be one thing to look out for. And secondly, they do have a belief that they're not good enough. They're not enough. Some of them actually say that. Many of them say, “I'm stupid,” or “I'm not as smart as Peter,” or “I can't do this but others can.” They will often give you very clear indications that they are seeing themselves as lesser than. And then, of course, the third part or another part of what should you look out for is the fight-flight-freeze behavior. So, if they're angry, defiant, temper tantrums, meltdowns, those are signs of trauma. That's the fight. If it's flight and they withdrawal; they don't want to go out. They say a lot of the time maybe even to the point of depression is the flight and the freeze is that they are afraid to engage with life in a healthy kind of way. So, all of those things are indications of my child's hurting inside really hurting inside and what we really need to understand, Traci, and I’m sure I must have said this to you so many times, is that all the fight-flight-freeze behaviors, the withdrawing, the fighting, whatever it is because children manifest it in different ways, the trauma vents beyond the child's control. The children, there’s not a child in the world who wakes up in the morning says, “I'm going to be so defiant today. I'm just going to fight everybody and resist everything and be oppositional. I think that's what I'm going to do.” It's the brain -- the inflamed brain, from the stress that is causing that behavior. And these children will tell you, “I don't know why I did that.” They always say, “I didn't mean to be so mean. I didn't mean to kick you,” or whatever it is, I don't know why I did it.” It's true. They are not choosing that behavior consciously. It is beyond their control it’s part of the stress syndrome.

Traci Shanklin 15:55

Yeah, I have experienced that firsthand. For the parent out there who has experienced it as well, really there's a fine line, because you don't want to give your kid a free pass for bad behavior but you also have to recognize the unique -- the uniqueness of the situation. So, I guess I'm going to ask you, are there best practices or unique ways to engage with a child when they're in that trauma response? 

Sandy Gluckman  16:29

Have you got three hours?

Traci Shanklin 16:30

I do, but I don't know if you do and the rest can wait for three-hour sessions. 

Sandy Gluckman  16:38

I’ll give you a little peek a few little pieces. First of all, my advice is never talk about the behavior that you're trying to improve. I was going to say, “fix,” but we don't fix. So, there's this child having a defiant temper tantrum. Let's say, kicking and screaming. My advice is don't talk about that. Because when we, you know, my work is based on neuroscience, and neuroscience tells us where you put the light on something, you're going to get more of it. So, number one, don't say, “We do not behave in this house in this kind of way.” Or “don't do that,” or “What made you think you should do that,” or any of those kinds of things. We don't label the behavior. We get in behind the behavior, and we talk about what's going on behind. And so, what could be going on behind. The child could be anxious. The child could be afraid, frustrated, annoyed, irritated, confused. And we can just test and ask the child we don't ask the child, “What are you feeling?” Once again, that is just too overwhelming for most kids to go inside. Discover what they're feeling. Give it a name and tell it to you. Too much stress. You may say, “I’m kind of thinking that maybe you're worried about something more, honey?” “I'm not so sure.” Now we're engaging. We're connecting with a child. We're connecting with the underlying root cause. And that connection, just even making that one single statement. That sort of question, you know. I always say to my parents, “Roleplay it a little bit.” It's like, “I don't know, I'm not sure. I think you might be worried, are you my honey?” It changes the chemistry in the child's brain and body. It's a chemistry of connection. It calms the child's nervous system because it says, “Mommy gets me. Wow.” And we're not talking about what, a bad kid?

Traci Shanklin  18:48

Yeah, so because of the nature of this conversation, we're talking to a lot of families -- blended families, specifically, and I think it's important if you could dive in a little bit to how grief and loss are actually feeding into trauma or a trauma response.

Sandy Gluckman  19:21

Yes, the grief and the loss is really shock. We’re talking about a shock, a shock response, a loss of a way of life, a loss of a person, a loss of my sense of safety. And when we go into shock like that, and if the shock is and the losses are not skillfully dealt with, they will live in the nervous system for a bit more. And so that child responds to life going forward, is there something terrible about to happen? So, I'm just going to fight everybody, or I'm going to flee from everything acting as, again, as a survivor, even when the new family and coming together well, and things seem safe, that takes a long time for the nervous system to begin to feel safe.

Traci Shanklin  20:16

Yeah, so I, my perspective on shutdown, the shock, and the nervous system really comes from being a mom through adoption, and really seeing it very differently in both of my children, but definitely something that lives very, very organically in them, if you will, and it is always a place where I'm treading as lightly as I can. And I will say that is it is something and then something that I'm that I have, when we go back to the parenting stuff, it's I bring a certain amount of my own guilt to that, I think in some capacity. Again, I know you said guilt is not healthy, but it is, that's the only word I have to describe that feeling I get because I feel it, I feel so helpless around him. And I think in a way that makes me feel guilty that I can't solve it for them. This is one thing that I can't bring, I can't bring closure for them on that's only time can do that. And any supports that -- any ideas around that? Maybe I'll just throw that out at you, is any supportive ideas for a parent who might be navigating something similar? Or, alternatively, from the blended families’ perspective, it's sometimes blended families come together because of the loss of a parent. And it could be that a stepparent is helping a child navigate that as well in a very in a way in which they have one hand tied behind their back.

Sandy Gluckman  21:55

And I was just thinking, as you were talking, Traci, that just in terms of your previous question is -- there's also PTSD involved? Here is a kind of PTSD, where the fear of loss, or the memory of it, terrible moment comes flooding back. And it's affecting them sitting in their nervous system as well. So, your question is a complicated one. In terms of what can they do. I'm going to have to go back to saying they, the parents need to start with being trauma-informed. Understand their own trauma. Be in a process of healing the trauma; having the tools to do that, which means that their nervous systems will become calmer, which means the children's nervous systems will become calm. I’m cautious about answering your question with a tool. I could give you some tools that the problem is that a mom or a dad who is still stuck with trauma in the nervous system is not going to be able to use the tool effectively. If I could just say, how would moms and dads know they’re stuck with trauma in the nervous system is that they would be showing either fight or flight or freeze type of behaviors. So, they’re angry parents; maybe they’re judgmental parents. They’re easily frustrated, right? Easily irritated. They get annoyed for the slightest thing, are they feel overwhelmed and they withdraw and get confused. So, that's how the parent knows they're stuck there. And all of that needs to be healed before they can actually think about healing children.

Traci Shanklin  23:58

Yeah, it's such an important piece in life in general, that I encourage everyone to do their work. And I say that, I say that knowing that this is not easy. But when you are given the gift of parenting these amazing children, we owe it to the next generation to your point. And anyway, I want to just say that just say words of encouragement to parents out there and stepparents that this isn't meant to be easy, but it really it starts with us. But, they always say that you can't change anyone, you can only change yourself. And that is really that is that goes with parenting as well. And not to say that there aren't some extenuating circumstances where at some point the child becomes an adult and is making adult decisions. But in the early years, I really believe that a lot of it is meant to be our work. And again. And I go back to what I said is that kids are our mirrors. And what is coming up for us as we're parenting is often a guide and a guide, be it the divine guide -- to digging a little bit deeper into our own inner work that needs to happen. So, with that, I want to switch to your programs because I think that's a great pick, because you have some amazing programs out there. And I think that the first thing I would ask, is there a particular program that you think would guide stepparents on their new role in their stepchildren's lives? 

Sandy Gluckman  25:37

Yes, it is the very best gold standard program, but there are a few. But this one is not. The one I get the most amazing results with is called, The Parenting that Heals Spirit-Body-Brain-10 sessions. So, it's ten consecutive sessions live on Zoom for ten weeks, and not all parents get the same program. The program is customized to the story of that particular client, and that package from an intake form. So, there's a batch of intake forms that mom fills in; a batch their dad fills in, and then goes through a Dr. Sandy analysis so that I can understand the history as well as the manifestation that's occurring, that indicating trauma. How the trauma is playing itself out in the child's body and the child's brain. And so, when the parents arrive for session, when I'm able to give them a very detailed analysis of exactly what's going on, and then a customized roadmap for healing it, and then we start the healing process. And the program is an interesting one because it's not only live sessions once a week. But prior to coming to the live sessions based on the intakes and the history, parents are given a number of short videos or exercises to watch and do before they arrive at the live session. And these videos are called, the parenting video coaching. And then there's the live coaching. So, the combination of that means we can cover an enormous amount of ground. Essentially, really what I'm doing is, I'm rewiring the parents’ brains. I would have videos, and they add a part of we didn't talk about earlier is the other science that I'm working with is neuroplasticity. So, I know how we can rewire our own brains. Again, Dr. Daniel Siegel has shown us we can rewire and wire our brains in ways that we want to do, I'm really rewiring the parents’ brains by the time they come to the last session, we can really work it. And of course, I also teach them how to rewire their children's belief of “I'm not enough.” 

Traci Shanklin  28:03

Yeah, very powerful program that science of neuroplasticity. I can't say it for some reason today. But, it is really mind blowing to me. And it is something that I work with and through daily because I'm so grateful that's a possibility from my own self. So, I get to rewire some of my limiting beliefs. And I work very diligently to do that. So, what sets your parenting program apart from other programs? Clearly, I could go on. I could do a list, but I'd like to hear from you. 

Sandy Gluckman  28:40

It goes back to what I said earlier, and that is that my programs don't teach parents how to manage a situation or manage a problem because it doesn't make much sense to me. If I'm giving you tools for managing that something, then it means the problem is still there. So, it goes back to the fact that I am all about healing, I don't believe in healing from the outside. I think that I was a therapist for many years. I have a Ph.D. in Clinical Psychology. I think that unless a therapist is trained in neuroscience, what they're intentionally trying to do is heal from the outside in with all the talking and the talking and often it's just causing much more stress. My program is based on teaching the parents how to heal themselves and heal their children from on the inside. Which means dealing with that underlying root cause we have to reduce cortisol levels; we have to de-flame the brain. We have to calm the nervous system, and we have to rewire the belief, so those are the four themes. And we do that on the inside not by talking from the outside.

Traci Shanklin  29:55

Yeah. What is the most rewarding part of this work? 

Sandy Gluckman  29:58

For me, it's around session five. Four or five. When parents start saying, “Oh my gosh, Dr. Sandy, I can't believe the difference in my child right now. And now, Traci, for many years, in fact, included in the time that I saw you and your lovely girls, and I would come to the consulting room, and then I realized, these children get in the car. They go home, and the parents unintentionally undo everything that I did in the consulting room. So, I stopped seeing the children. My intention was to work with the parents, and then I’ll work with the children. I never had to work with the children. It just was amazing for me to discover that by the time I finished the ten sessions, the children were fine. All their symptoms had reversed. 

Traci Shanklin  30:49

And I think that's an important thing for people listening to think about, the reward gets to be yours. Like you get to, you get to see it, and you own it because you've done the work. And you've made the changes in the way in which you're parenting or processing or responding to the things that used to cause so much drama or chaos in your home and around you. So, I think it's a really, it's the work is so worth it to any parent who has been down the rabbit hole of diagnosis, please look at this work, please -- because you will be doing yourself and your family and your child the greatest service you could ever do. And if you're a family, a blended family, this is really tremendous work to help you bring in that family dynamic in a more natural and cohesive way because your personal stuff will come up. When you're dealing with an ex or you're dealing with a child step child's doing something that you wouldn't allow your own child to do or whatever, there's going to be a dynamic that is going to bring up stuff for you. So, this is really important to understand your response mechanisms. 

Sandy Gluckman  32:09

Just to say that if that program for reasons of time, finance, whatever it may be, is not available for the parents, then I have online video coaching programs, which means they will receive the information on video and can look at it at home and time and at their own pace. Of course, the big piece that's missing from that is the personal healing piece. But, I do give the tools, so yeah, those programs. I also want to say that I do a complimentary session, a 30-minute complimentary session, so if anybody wants to tell me their story and see how I handle it, you can schedule that on our website.

Traci Shanklin  32:54

Yeah. Is there or do you have a story of a particular thing that you can share that you're most proud of? 

Sandy Gluckman  33:01

Gosh, there’s so many. I think the one that stands out, probably because it's recent. A four-year-old, adopted, came from a very bad scenario; was behaving pretty much like a wild animal. Couldn't be loved wanted to be loved, but didn't allow anybody to love him. Parents are amazing parents. Yet, they couldn't connect with him. And he was tearing the family apart. There were other children in the family. It's what we call an attachment disorder. Where these children did not attach as little babies. They were not given the original developmental need that they had. And I guess, again, within five, six weeks, these parents were just they didn't have enough words to say. We found the child has emerged. There is no wild animal in there. He's just the most amazing child. And this little kid had the funniest sense of humor; was smart as could be; as kind and caring to sisters and brothers, which was the very opposite for a very long time. 

Traci Shanklin  34:19

Yeah, that touches me because it's really, it's when you say they found the child, and I think that's an important moment when you see the true spirit of your child, and it's such a beautiful moment. So, I'm getting emotional. How can our listeners find you and your parenting program? 

Sandy Gluckman  34:39

The website is www.drsandygluckman.com. And I would also say if people are going to take a look at my website, have a look at the tab at the top which says, About, and what I did was I opened a page on the website for parents who graduated from the ten-session program to talk about how it transformed their lives. So, some of them have written; they're putting pictures on there. Many of them actually put it on audio, just two minutes, little pieces, segments. They are inspiring. So, that would be interesting for people to hear because it gives people a sense of what these graduates of the program came out with. So, yes, it's all on the website. 

Traci Shanklin  35:25

Yeah, I will link that in the show notes as well so that people will have the direct link. Is there anything that we may have missed that you'd like to share with our listeners? Or is there anything that you would like for the listeners to know about yourself? Or the parenting programs? 

Sandy Gluckman  35:42

No, not about myself. What I want to say to parents is because it could be parents with children of all ages listening, I want to say it is never too late to heal a hurting spirit. Never too late. It doesn't matter how old the child is. I had parents who have had children in their 30s, in their 20s, seventeen-year-olds, lots of teenagers. And they all ask me, “Is it isn't it too late, Dr. Sandy?” It is never too late because there is a child in there who is desperately waiting for you to connect with him or her. And when you do, you will see that amazing transformation come through.

Traci Shanklin  36:29

Great advice. Thank you, Dr. Sandy. I know you have enlightened our community and you were definitively a lifeline for me in a moment of crisis, and I will be forever grateful for our work together. You are literally changing lives with your passion, so thank you. 

Sandy Gluckman  36:48

Thank you, Traci, thank you for the opportunity to share this. 

Traci Shanklin  36:52

Yes, thank you to our listeners for tuning in to the Nuclear Families Evangelist where we enlist experts and humor as we help you unlock your hidden superpower of being blended. Like you, I live and breathe my nuclear families every day. I am a wife, a mother through marriage, a mother again through adoption, and a daughter from an eccentric family with multiple marriages and multiple blended families. I want this show to be part of the healing and changing the picture of what makes a unique, imperfectly perfect family. Please join us for our next episode of the Nuclear Families Evangelist, a place where we debunk the mythologies of biology with a lot of love, forgiveness and humor -- one conversation at a time.

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